Talk:Puppet state

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Puppet state article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2: 12 months

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Politics Mid‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

International relations Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Countries

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry

WikiProject Countries to-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy.
Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries
Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region.
Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess.

Neutrality and US Cold War puppets?

Not a massive deal, but give wikipedia's neutrality policy, why are only Soviet Puppet Governments listed? There were plenty of American puppet governments in Latin America of considerable note and they are absent here. Obviously neutrality may not apply as the Cold War is long over, but is it not remiss to write on puppet governments of the most important state in Modern history. 138.248.180.210 (talk) 09:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

US is not a puppet of Israel

A recent edit by @Valorthal77 added the US to the list of puppets of Israel. Neither of the included sources says that or even features anyone who says that. Some of the specifics (e.g. "blocking" of UN resolutions or opposing BDS) can be easily sourced, but the conclusion that the US is therefore a puppet of Israel is both currently WP:SYN and extremely unlikely to ever have any RS saying that. The only option IMO that therefore makes sense is deleting that segment entirely.

As an aside, may I suggest instead adding the State of Free Lebanon and/or South Lebanon security belt administration under Israeli puppets? Even a cursory glance on my end shows that would be fairly easy to source. 2600:1700:3D58:90F:DA32:80F5:F24F:7C5E (talk) 22:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The provided sources don't make that claim as you point out. Betelgeuse X (talk) 07:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Valorthal77, you restored sources that do not support the claim and added more that do not either. The first new source is about an accusation by Nader against Bush and the Congress. The second source is about an accusation by activists against American officials. None of the sources make such an analysis. The content as it stands is still originally researched. StephenMacky1 (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

News reports that cite statements from officials and individuals are considered acceptable sources. Nader was a prominent candidate in the elections. Valorthal77 (talk) 23:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's true, but even then, Nader is the only source that actually says the US government is a puppet of Israel (and not even directly). The other source (JC) features only one person who says "our elected officials" (which ones?) are controlled by the Zionist lobby (i.e., not the state of Israel). This is certainly not enough to justify "frequently described" or "many pointing to." The most you could say is "former presidential candidate Ralph Nader has claimed...", but this would beg the question of why his position matters.

The other problem is that your segment is only commenting on US foreign policy. A puppet state is defined within the article itself as "completely dependent upon an outside power and subject to its orders." You would therefore need to find RS that describe the overall affairs of the US (not just any particular segment) as being controlled by Israel. As it stands, your edits are still OR with sourcing that is essentially irrelevant.

2600:1700:3D58:90F:4678:B963:573D:BA1E (talk) 05:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As explained by the IP, it is originally researched. Just because some individuals have made claims, it does not mean we should include them here. You will not find any academic make such an extraordinary claim so there is no dispute here at all. Since you lack consensus, I would recommend you to self-revert in good faith. StephenMacky1 (talk) 12:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why don’t you assume good faith towards me and refrain from speaking in a hostile manner? Even Representative Thomas Massie brought up this issue in an interview last June! Valorthal77 (talk) 21:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Find an RS where Massie says the US gov is a puppet of, or otherwise controlled by, Israel and/or uses that in their analysis. Even in the interview to which you refer, he alleged only that Republican congressmen have AIPAC handlers (again, not state agents of Israel). To go from this to saying that the US government as an entire body is subservient to Israel is not justified even by your own sourcing.

2600:1700:3D58:90F:4678:B963:573D:BA1E (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing hostile in telling you how it is. You just need to stop for a moment and consider what you are being told. We are all bound by policy here. StephenMacky1 (talk) 22:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If consistently voting against ceasefires, blocking the recognition of Palestine, and offering extensive military and intelligence support to Israel don’t clearly align with its interests, I’m not sure what more evidence you need to see that Washington is controlled by the Zionist lobby, with the government merely acting as its puppet. Valorthal77 (talk) 22:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

All you need is reliable sources that reach that conclusion. All statements need to be directly verifiable and not implied. StephenMacky1 (talk) 22:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]