Talk:Psalms

Masoretic vs LXX numbering

Confusing: enWiki used to link mainly to the Bible Gateway website (now BGW seems to have stopped cooperating, templates aren't working anymore), and with the oremus website. BGW uses the Masoretic numbers (all Cristian as well as the "Complete Jewish Bible" and "Orthodox Jewish Bible" versions), and so does oremus. One can check that for instance by comparing Ps. 113 at Mechon Mamre (Ps. 113 here) and on those two websites. To find the LXX numbers actually indicated in brackets, one must go for instance on Bible Hub.

MY PROBLEM:

1. Linking as we do, w/o explanation, leaves out those users who are accustomed to, and refer to, the LXX numbering.
2. There's no mention in that section of Protestant practice. It would be logical to think that they go with the Masoretic system, but it must be stated.

As it is now, enWiki id using one single harmonised numbering across the board, all-Madoretic, and that leaves some large denominations out.

The article only mentions that the official Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic texts use the Greek numbering, and that the Modern Catholic prefer the Hebrew numbering. Arminden (talk) 11:32, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

There is now a template {{Psalm nr}} as a very useful hatnote for the individual psalm articles. For instance at Psalm 126 it results in hatnote: This article is about Psalm 126 in Hebrew (Masoretic) numbering. For Psalm 126 in Greek Septuagint or Latin Vulgate numbering, see Psalm 127.

So I propose that we can remove the rather awkward and tedious psalm-number wording near the top of the text of such articles. (Continuing the Ps.126 example, that would be removing the now-unnecessary text currently saying In the slightly different numbering system used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Bible and in the Latin Vulgate, this psalm is Psalm 125.)

Any objections? If not, I'll make a start in a few days. Feline Hymnic (talk) 18:43, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal above promoted to its own section below for greater visibility. Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:29, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

Simplify lead of the psalm articles

There is now a template {{Psalm nr}} as a very useful hatnote for the individual psalm articles. For instance at Psalm 126 it results in hatnote: This article is about Psalm 126 in Hebrew (Masoretic) numbering. For Psalm 126 in Greek Septuagint or Latin Vulgate numbering, see Psalm 127.

So I propose that we can remove the rather awkward and tedious psalm-number wording near the top of the text of such articles. (Continuing the Ps.126 example, that would be removing the now-unnecessary text currently saying In the slightly different numbering system used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Bible and in the Latin Vulgate, this psalm is Psalm 125.)

Any objections? If not, I'll make a start in a few days. Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:29, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

The References and the Bibliography Sections

I don't understand the distinction between the "References" and "Bibliography" sections. Why maintain this seemingly arbitrary separation? Why not combine them? 66.215.184.32 (talk) 07:00, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

Adding Septuagint

I added the Septuagint and a translation of it to the articles of the first 51 psalms, only to be told that there was a discussion over 5 years ago, and it was decided there to only put the text of each psalm in Hebrew, a translation of the Hebrew (the JPS), and the KJV. But I think this decision needs to be rediscussed. The Septuagint is too historically important not to include, and it represents a different enough (and older) textual tradition than the Masoretic text. But since having 5 different versions of each psalm's text is too much, I think there should be a single table in each psalm's article with each verse in Hebrew, Greek from the Septuagint, English from the KJV, and maybe Latin from the Vulgate too. So Psalm 1 would look something like this:

Verse	English (KJV)	Hebrew	Septuagint
1	Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.	אַ֥שְֽׁרֵי הָאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֤ר ׀ לֹ֥א הָלַךְ֮ בַּעֲצַ֢ת רְשָׁ֫עִ֥ים וּבְדֶ֣רֶךְ חַ֭טָּאִים לֹ֥א עָמָ֑ד וּבְמוֹשַׁ֥ב לֵ֝צִ֗ים לֹ֣א יָשָֽׁב׃‎	ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ ἀνήρ, ὃς οὐκ ἐπορεύθη ἐν βουλῇ ἀσεβῶν καὶ ἐν ὁδῷ ἁμαρτωλῶν οὐκ ἔστη καὶ ἐπὶ καθέδρᾳ λοιμῶν οὐκ ἐκάθισεν.
2	But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.	כִּ֤י אִ֥ם בְּתוֹרַ֥ת יְהֹוָ֗ה חֶ֫פְצ֥וֹ וּֽבְתוֹרָת֥וֹ יֶהְגֶּ֗ה יוֹמָ֥ם וָלָֽיְלָה׃‎	ἀλλ᾿ ἤ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ Κυρίου τὸ θέλημα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ αὐτοῦ μελετήσει ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτός.
3	And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.	וְֽהָיָ֗ה כְּעֵץ֮ שָׁת֢וּל עַֽל־פַּלְגֵ֫י־מָ֥יִם אֲשֶׁ֤ר פִּרְי֨וֹ ׀ יִתֵּ֬ן בְּעִתּ֗וֹ וְעָלֵ֥הוּ לֹֽא־יִבּ֑וֹל וְכֹ֖ל אֲשֶׁר־יַעֲשֶׂ֣ה יַצְלִֽיחַ׃‎	καὶ ἔσται ὡς τὸ ξύλον τὸ πεφυτευμένον παρὰ τὰς διεξόδους τῶν ὑδάτων, ὃ τὸν καρπὸν αὐτοῦ δώσει ἐν καιρῷ αὐτοῦ, καὶ τὸ φύλλον αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἀποῤῥυήσεται· καὶ πάντα, ὅσα ἂν ποιῇ, κατευοδωθήσεται.
4	The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.	לֹא־כֵ֥ן הָרְשָׁעִ֑ים כִּ֥י אִם־כַּ֝מֹּ֗ץ אֲֽשֶׁר־תִּדְּפֶ֥נּוּ רֽוּחַ׃‎	οὐχ οὕτως οἱ ἀσεβεῖς, οὐχ οὕτως, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ ὡσεὶ χνοῦς, ὃν ἐκρίπτει ὁ ἄνεμος ἀπὸ προσώπου τῆς γῆς.
5	Therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.	עַל־כֵּ֤ן ׀ לֹא־יָקֻ֣מוּ רְ֭שָׁעִים בַּמִּשְׁפָּ֑ט וְ֝חַטָּאִ֗ים בַּעֲדַ֥ת צַדִּיקִֽים׃‎	διὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἀναστήσονται ἀσεβεῖς ἐν κρίσει, οὐδὲ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἐν βουλῇ δικαίων·
6	For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.	כִּֽי־יוֹדֵ֣עַ יְ֭הֹוָה דֶּ֣רֶךְ צַדִּיקִ֑ים וְדֶ֖רֶךְ רְשָׁעִ֣ים תֹּאבֵֽד׃‎	ὅτι γινώσκει Κύριος ὁδὸν δικαίων, καὶ ὁδὸς ἀσεβῶν ἀπολεῖται.

I used a script to add the first 51 psalms in Greek, so it wouldn't be that hard for me to use another one and do this for all the psalms. What do you all think?💖平沢唯を愛してる💖 (talk) 00:31, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. However, you don't mention where you're sourcing the Greek from. IMO a modern eclectic edition would be ideal, as we can't include variants. For the MT it doesn't matter nearly as much because the text is so much more stable, but similarly Ginsburg or Cassuto would be best. GordonGlottal (talk) 02:50, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I'm sourcing it from this website, which seems to be getting it from the 1870 edition of Brenton's Septuagint 💖平沢唯を愛してる💖 (talk) 20:56, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Have you looked at the table above on a mobile? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I'm on mobile right now, and I made it on mobile too. It looks fine, except that maybe the English column should be in the middle so users can read it alongside the Hebrew or the Greek. Also, if you think it looks bad, you can always change it, like this for example:

#	Hebrew	English	Greek
1	אַ֥שְֽׁרֵי הָאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֤ר ׀ לֹ֥א הָלַךְ֮ בַּעֲצַ֢ת רְשָׁ֫עִ֥ים וּבְדֶ֣רֶךְ חַ֭טָּאִים לֹ֥א עָמָ֑ד וּבְמוֹשַׁ֥ב לֵ֝צִ֗ים לֹ֣א יָשָֽׁב׃‎	Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.	ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ ἀνήρ, ὃς οὐκ ἐπορεύθη ἐν βουλῇ ἀσεβῶν καὶ ἐν ὁδῷ ἁμαρτωλῶν οὐκ ἔστη καὶ ἐπὶ καθέδρᾳ λοιμῶν οὐκ ἐκάθισεν.
2	כִּ֤י אִ֥ם בְּתוֹרַ֥ת יְהֹוָ֗ה חֶ֫פְצ֥וֹ וּֽבְתוֹרָת֥וֹ יֶהְגֶּ֗ה יוֹמָ֥ם וָלָֽיְלָה׃‎	But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.	ἀλλ᾿ ἤ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ Κυρίου τὸ θέλημα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ αὐτοῦ μελετήσει ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτός.
3	וְֽהָיָ֗ה כְּעֵץ֮ שָׁת֢וּל עַֽל־פַּלְגֵ֫י־מָ֥יִם אֲשֶׁ֤ר פִּרְי֨וֹ ׀ יִתֵּ֬ן בְּעִתּ֗וֹ וְעָלֵ֥הוּ לֹֽא־יִבּ֑וֹל וְכֹ֖ל אֲשֶׁר־יַעֲשֶׂ֣ה יַצְלִֽיחַ׃‎	And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.	καὶ ἔσται ὡς τὸ ξύλον τὸ πεφυτευμένον παρὰ τὰς διεξόδους τῶν ὑδάτων, ὃ τὸν καρπὸν αὐτοῦ δώσει ἐν καιρῷ αὐτοῦ, καὶ τὸ φύλλον αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἀποῤῥυήσεται· καὶ πάντα, ὅσα ἂν ποιῇ, κατευοδωθήσεται.
4	לֹא־כֵ֥ן הָרְשָׁעִ֑ים כִּ֥י אִם־כַּ֝מֹּ֗ץ אֲֽשֶׁר־תִּדְּפֶ֥נּוּ רֽוּחַ׃‎	The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.	οὐχ οὕτως οἱ ἀσεβεῖς, οὐχ οὕτως, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ ὡσεὶ χνοῦς, ὃν ἐκρίπτει ὁ ἄνεμος ἀπὸ προσώπου τῆς γῆς.
5	עַל־כֵּ֤ן ׀ לֹא־יָקֻ֣מוּ רְ֭שָׁעִים בַּמִּשְׁפָּ֑ט וְ֝חַטָּאִ֗ים בַּעֲדַ֥ת צַדִּיקִֽים׃‎	Therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.	διὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἀναστήσονται ἀσεβεῖς ἐν κρίσει, οὐδὲ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἐν βουλῇ δικαίων·
6	כִּֽי־יוֹדֵ֣עַ יְ֭הֹוָה דֶּ֣רֶךְ צַדִּיקִ֑ים וְדֶ֖רֶךְ רְשָׁעִ֣ים תֹּאבֵֽד׃‎	For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.	ὅτι γινώσκει Κύριος ὁδὸν δικαίων, καὶ ὁδὸς ἀσεβῶν ἀπολεῖται.

💖平沢唯を愛してる💖 (talk) 03:09, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

"ἀσεβῶν" In Greek that typically means "impious" in religious contexts, and "disrespectful" in secular contexts. Who translated it as "ungodly"? Dimadick (talk) 12:16, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

L. C. L Brenton. Is there a difference between impious and ungodly? Also, Strong's Concordance defines it as "ungodly, impious, irreverent", and that's how it's defined on wiktionary as well. 💖平沢唯を愛してる💖 (talk) 20:00, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

The key problem I see with three languages in one table - worse than having very narrow columns or very few verses on mobile - is that I am afraid that readers would think the English is a translation of the Hebrew and the Greek, while KJV tried to be a translation but is dated, and more modern translations have been rejected as copyright violations. I believe that the way we had - Hebrew and KJV below it, not on the side - served readers better. The few who would profit from the Greek can always look at external links, and for more modern translations, the same. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:34, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

First of all, can you please explain what's wrong with the KJV? It is a translation of the Hebrew and Greek, and it's the most influential English translation of the Bible, so it should absolutely stay. Even the JPS mostly just mirrors it. Second, any disclaimers or reservations about the text can go just above the table, or in a note. We could note that the Masoretic and Septuagint sometimes differ from each other because they come from different textual traditions, and put an external link to the translation of each one. This should be in a note so that it's not intrusive for most readers, who can't read Greek or Hebrew. If there's anything you don't like about the KJV, that can also go in a note. Thirdly, I don't see why the Hebrew should be in the page's body but the Greek in an external link. As many (if not more) readers would benefit from having the Greek than the Hebrew, because:

1. More people can read and understand Greek than Hebrew. The worldwide Greek and Jewish populations are the same, but Greek is used in most Orthodox (and to a lesser extent, Catholic) churches and more often studied by academics.

2. The majority of readers are probably going to be Christian, not Jewish

3. The Septuagint was historically much more influential than the Masoretic text. It's the version that's usually quoted in the New Testament, and the one that most Christians in the Middle Ages would have prayed. 💖平沢唯を愛してる💖 (talk) 05:08, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

English is not my first language, I must have said something wrong to give you the impression that I thought something was "wrong" with the KJV. It's our own source text, highly influential, set by composers ... - no doubt about that. However, as far as I understand, it's by now dated, in choice of some words and in things that would now be phrased differently, therefore I'd not place it besides one of the others. There's also the problem of different verse numbering between Hebrew and English that I'd find confusing when in one table. As for your points 1-3: they make me think about dropping Hebrew also, but I try to speak up for minorities ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:53, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response, I've been really busy lately. Anyway, I thought you have a problem with the KJV because you said that it "tried to be" a translation, implying it isn't one. Now I see your point, and I agree. As beautiful and influential as the KJV is, it is kind of hard to read for modern audiences. There are a few other public domain Bible translations, of which the one I would prefer is the ASV. But still, the KJV being too hard to read isn't the issue I wanted to fix, so I'm fine with leaving it there for now. And besides, people who look for psalms on Wikipedia are probably there to read about their historical context, not to use Wikipedia as a Bible, so we should use a historical translation like the KJV.

As for dropping Hebrew, that wasn't my intention at all. The psalms were originally written in Hebrew, so it's important to leave it there. Anyone who understands Hebrew would benefit more from reading the psalms in Hebrew than English. I just want to add Greek too, because the same logic applies there: anyone who understands Greek would benefit more from reading the psalms in Greek than English. They're less layers of translation away from the original.

As for the verse numbering, I say we just go with the English numbering (since that one's more common when referencing verses), and add a note saying that the Hebrew numbering is different. Psalm 3 is one of those psalms, and here is how I think it should look:

Text

The following table shows the Hebrew text of the Psalm with vowels, alongside the Koine Greek text in the Septuagint and the English translation from the King James Version. Note that the meaning can slightly differ between these versions, as the Septuagint and the Masoretic text come from different textual traditions.

#	Hebrew	English	Greek
	מִזְמ֥וֹר לְדָוִ֑ד בְּ֝בׇרְח֗וֹ מִפְּנֵ֤י ׀ אַבְשָׁל֬וֹם בְּנֽוֹ׃‎	(A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son.)	Ψαλμὸς τῷ Δαυΐδ, ὁπότε ἀπεδίδρασκεν ἀπὸ προσώπου ᾿Αβεσσαλὼμ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ -
1	יְ֭הֹוָה מָה־רַבּ֣וּ צָרָ֑י רַ֝בִּ֗ים קָמִ֥ים עָלָֽי׃‎	Lord, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me.	ΚΥΡΙΕ, τί ἐπληθύνθησαν οἱ θλίβοντές με; πολλοὶ ἐπανίστανται ἐπ᾿ ἐμέ·
2	רַבִּים֮ אֹמְרִ֢ים לְנַ֫פְשִׁ֥י אֵ֤ין יְֽשׁוּעָ֓תָה לּ֬וֹ בֵאלֹהִ֬ים סֶֽלָה׃‎	Many there be which say of my soul, There is no help for him in God. Selah.	πολλοὶ λέγουσι τῇ ψυχῇ μου· οὐκ ἔστι σωτηρία αὐτῷ ἐν τῷ Θεῷ αὐτοῦ. (διάψαλμα).
3	וְאַתָּ֣ה יְ֭הֹוָה מָגֵ֣ן בַּעֲדִ֑י כְּ֝בוֹדִ֗י וּמֵרִ֥ים רֹאשִֽׁי׃‎	But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.	σὺ δέ, Κύριε, ἀντιλήπτωρ μου εἶ, δόξα μου καὶ ὑψῶν τὴν κεφαλήν μου.
4	ק֭וֹלִי אֶל־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֶקְרָ֑א וַיַּעֲנֵ֨נִי מֵהַ֖ר קׇדְשׁ֣וֹ סֶֽלָה׃‎	I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.	φωνῇ μου πρὸς Κύριον ἐκέκραξα, καὶ ἐπήκουσέ μου ἐξ ὄρους ἁγίου αὐτοῦ. (διάψαλμα).
5	אֲנִ֥י שָׁכַ֗בְתִּי וָאִ֫ישָׁ֥נָה הֱקִיצ֑וֹתִי כִּ֖י יְהֹוָ֣ה יִסְמְכֵֽנִי׃‎	I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.	ἐγὼ ἐκοιμήθην καὶ ὕπνωσα· ἐξηγέρθην, ὅτι Κύριος ἀντιλήψεταί μου.
6	לֹֽא־אִ֭ירָא מֵרִבְב֥וֹת עָ֑ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר סָ֝בִ֗יב שָׁ֣תוּ עָלָֽי׃‎	I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set themselves against me round about.	οὐ φοβηθήσομαι ἀπὸ μυριάδων λαοῦ τῶν κύκλῳ συνεπιτιθεμένων μοι.
7	ק֘וּמָ֤ה יְהֹוָ֨ה ׀ הוֹשִׁ֘יעֵ֤נִי אֱלֹהַ֗י כִּֽי־הִכִּ֣יתָ אֶת־כׇּל־אֹיְבַ֣י לֶ֑חִי שִׁנֵּ֖י רְשָׁעִ֣ים שִׁבַּֽרְתָּ׃‎	Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.	ἀνάστα, Κύριε, σῶσόν με, ὁ Θεός μου, ὅτι σὺ ἐπάταξας πάντας τοὺς ἐχθραίνοντάς μοι ματαίως, ὀδόντας ἁμαρτωλῶν συνέτριψας.
8	לַֽיהֹוָ֥ה הַיְשׁוּעָ֑ה עַֽל־עַמְּךָ֖ בִרְכָתֶ֣ךָ סֶּֽלָה׃‎	Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.	τοῦ Κυρίου ἡ σωτηρία, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν λαόν σου ἡ εὐλογία σου.

References

💖平沢唯を愛してる💖 (talk) 08:25, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

For background: Hebrew was brought in mainly by Yoninah, one of the greatest Wikipedians I had the pleasure to meet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

I like your introduction and also the note about the verse numbering, an elegant solution. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:15, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm going to implement it later today. Actually, I forgot to put external links to the translations, so I'll do that too. 💖平沢唯を愛してる💖 (talk) 20:54, 7 March 2025 (UTC)